Source Audio Pedals Becoming Non-Responsive on PBC/6X Board

W

wisconimike

Well-Known Member
This is a bit of a long-shot, as I 100% don't think this has anything to do with the PBC/6X or MultiBox in my rig, but I thought I would post it b/c, well, Ron is a genius and there is a chance this post can solve a major problem.
In short, my Source Audio Nemesis ADT and Source Audio Ventris intermittently boot up blank--no presets, nothing. This is not a factory reset--there are no presets at all. It's very, very strange. I have spent 6 months or so troubleshooting with Source Audio and they were even kind enough to replace one of the pedals to see if it stopped and this a.m. I had a first--they both booted up blank. Yikes. Thankfully I had them backed up just as of yesterday.
We're not talking every time. This is maybe 1:20 - 1:40. Just enough to be very, very inconvenient.
They thought perhaps it was from booting them up while the USB cable is connected, but they have booted up blank with it unplugged several times.
I wondered if it was caused by a spike in power pulled by all the pedals on my board powering up at the same time and the Source Audio pedals being given insufficient power. (even though by the math my Pedal Power 3 Pluses are all < 50% of capacity). So I would boot up with the power disconnected, wait a minute and then power them up. But they still boot up blank.
They have said that it has happened to just one or two other people, but is super uncommon and they've never been able to recreate it.
My MIDI for these units goes: PBC/6X --> MultiBox --> Ventris --> Nemesis. Shouldn't be anything wrong there.
They each have their own 500mA port in a Pedal Power 3 Plus (these only require 300mA).
I'm entirely stuck. I probably need to just move off of them and get other pedals, but these are perfect for what I want and I'd really love to not have to reprogram 250 presets.
Any ideas would be most helpful.
 
Well, for engineers and designers, catastrophic product issues like this are a terrifying scenario.

This is more of a question for the folks at SA, but is there anyway to confirm that the user/preset memory has actually been erased? Or could this be a case of the code or processor thinking the memory has been erased but in fact it hasn't?

My recommendations would be... Prior to powering up the board;

(1) Disconnect the power plugs for those two pedals. Then after the rest of the board is powered up, plug in those power plugs one at a time. Do this for a while to see if it has any effect.

(2) Disconnect the MIDI (IN) connections for both pedals. Re-connect after the board is powered up. Try for a while to see if it has any effect.

Please circle back with any updates!
 
Thanks Mario! Good to see your name!
I tried option 1 for a while and still had an issue, but I'm up for trying it again.
And that's a good thought on option 2. The pedals are in there tight so the only feasible way to test this is to unplug all MIDI from the PBC/6X output at bootup. Any issue with that? I'd be concerned about cable wear over the long-term, but worth a short-term test for sure!
 
Unfortunately I think it would be best to disconnect MIDI at the pedals. Disconnecting at the PBC6X would still leave a physical connection at the pedals. My thought process is to isolate all variables, etc.

Cable wear is definitely a valid concern. Hopefully (not, but) this happens with some sort of frequency that you'll know whether the MIDI connection has anything to do with it in a relatively short period of time.

I'd also circle back to SA and ask them;

"Is there anyway to confirm that the user/preset memory has actually been erased? Or could this be a case of the code or processor thinking the memory has been erased but in fact it hasn't?"

It does sound like you'd miss having one of the pedals on the board. But maybe SA is willing to have you send them one of the pedals as soon as it powers up "blank" without any intervention from you, so they could take a deep(er) look at it to confirm the memory has actually been erased.
 
Ah yeah, that makes sense about the cable. I'll ask them about that too.
And the other question you raised for sure. Thank you!

I was able to create a backup file of one of the pedals when this happened and send it to them and they couldn't find anything weird with it, but maybe having the physical unit is next level! Good idea!!
 
I am more than likely out to lunch with my train of thought and question(s) for SA, but this is a really bizarre issue, which I feel requires thinking out of all the boxes. Creating a backup file requires the pedal's processor to generate the file, basically, but if the processor thinks the memory is erased, then that's what it'll produce. My suggestion is that as soon as a pedal powers on blank, you disconnect power, and send it off to SA to look at. This will require them to be fully committed to figuring it out, and having an engineer look at it as soon as they get it, versus a repair technician. It's a big ask on their part, especially if it has only happened to one or two customers, etc.
 
Great thoughts, Mario! I think their lead engineer just left, which complicates matters. They had talked about replacing my Ventris, so I just asked them if they can send me a new one and I keep using the old one until this happens and then send it back blank. We'll see what they say!
 
That's exactly what I would've asked them! I hope it works out and you/they can get to the bottom of it.
 
Interesting turn of events yesterday. While rehearsing a set (same as many times this week), the Nemesis switched into bypass (I never turn it off b/c it's in a PBC loop and I just disengage that loop if I want it off) and wouldn't turn back on or respond to any MIDI. Unplugged it, waited 10 seconds, plugged it back in and it worked again. So weird. That has happened 1 or 2x before but that's a more rare issue. So far so good about boot up though! Been booting up with MIDI + power + USB all unplugged and then power --> MIDI --> USB.
I play at church today and then the next time is Easter. So I might try running it off its own power supply while rehearsing over the next 3 weeks and see if I run into any issues. My power supplies are all Pedal Power 3 Plus, so it's not like these are some Amazon knock off, but might as well try isolating everything possible and see if it still misbehaves. Kind of an elimination diet approach haha
 
Interestingly weird about the Nemesis.

Thanks for the update on the main issue. I agree that the Pedal Power 3+ is not known to be a problematic power supply. Unfortunately the issue is very, very strange and rare so the process of elimination is all we really have. It could come down to something being at fault with a particular PP3+, you never know.

Keep us posted!
 
Hi Mario! I've been hopeful that it's just a power issue, so I've been booting up the board with both units unplugged from everything but audio jacks (power, MIDI, and USB unplugged). Then powering them on via an external source. Then MIDI. Then USB. And they have worked perfectly.
But today the Ventris wouldn't respond to MIDI when I booted it up. After retrying 3x, it started working.
The Nemesis has been restarted 4x and still won't respond to MIDI. My presets are actually there when I look in their editor and it's on the right MIDI channel, but it won't change presets with PCs. And I'm using song presets I've used before so I know it's not a weird/wrong programming issue with some new/untested thing.
Pedal is on and I can manually change presets, but it won't take MIDI.
And the strange thing is there are 3 pedals in a line on this MIDI run: Ventris (working) --> Nemesis (not taking MIDI) --> Mobius (working).
Such strange behavior

UPDATE: 5th time worked for the Nemesis. This time powering it up with the PP3P on the board. So so weird.
And this is the new replacement unit they sent me a few months ago.
 
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Frustrating to say the least! Does SA have a user forum where you can compare notes with others or have you checked other guitar forums to see how many others are experiencing a similar issue?
 
Not that I know of unfortunately.

They said that just a couple other people have experienced something similar, but they can't recreate it.

At this stage, the only constants between all the experiments are the models themselves (they replaced my Nemesis, so I've had 2 now and both have behaved the same), the RJM MultiBox and the PBC/6X. To be perfectly candid, I think what I'm about to ask is likely really dumb and I am certain the answer is no, but for sake of thoroughness I'll ask it anyways. Is there anything in my PBC/6X or MultiBox setup that could cause this strange behavior? And to be clear, it's only like 5% of the time--everything is usually great.

Also, my MIDI signal chain is PBC/6X --> MultiBox --> Ventris --> Nemesis --> Mobius.
I also have 6 other MIDI devices, but they are coming out of different MultiBox outputs. This makes it so I can't test it well with just PBC -> SA
 
The fact that the Mobius works tells me that there are no hardware issues, unless they're in the Nemesis itself, and even then it's unlikely to be a hardware problem because MIDI thru is working.

Have you tried connecting the PBC/6X's MIDI output directly to the Nemesis input? Or controlling the Nemesis with a PC, just to see if it works in those cases?

When you say you are power cycling, are you power cycling the SA pedals, or the whole pedalboard?
 
I haven't tried connecting the PBC straight to the SA pedal b/c 95% of the time things are working fine and I need to be able to program and/or control the other 6 MIDI devices. So going straight to SA would eliminate all my other MIDI capabilities.

When I was power cycling I was just unplugging the power from the SA pedal --> unplug MIDI and USB --> power back on, wait a few --> plug in MIDI --> plug in USB
 
And just to reiterate the issues, which are all intermittent:
1) sometimes the Nemesis or Ventris boots up blank. No factory presets. None of my presets. No MIDI channel. Nothing on there (per the windows editor)
2) sometimes they become non-responsive mid-playing (with or without even me changing a preset)
3) sometimes they boot up with all my presets, but won't respond to any MIDI even though everything is set up the same.

Total occurrence of issues is about 5% of the time I'd guess.

And I've hit the end of the road with troubleshooting with SA unfortunately
 
wisconimike said:
And just to reiterate the issues, which are all intermittent:
1) sometimes the Nemesis or Ventris boots up blank. No factory presets. None of my presets. No MIDI channel. Nothing on there (per the windows editor)
2) sometimes they become non-responsive mid-playing (with or without even me changing a preset)
3) sometimes they boot up with all my presets, but won't respond to any MIDI even though everything is set up the same.

Total occurrence of issues is about 5% of the time I'd guess.

And I've hit the end of the road with troubleshooting with SA unfortunately
Click to expand...
This really does seem like an SA issue, given all the things you mentioned.
 
I fully agree. Honestly, the PBC/6X just might be my favorite piece of gear. It's so rock solid. There was no point in any of this that I thought, "Maybe it's my PBC" :) Never once.
But for sake of thoroughness, I thought I should ask.
Is there anything in the MultiBox that could be causing issues? That one was a bit trickier to set up, but I'm pretty sure it's set up right.
It's worth noting again that I have 9 MIDI devices and aside from these SA issues noted above, they all work perfectly. I have programmed about 250 presets, with the average one sending 3-5 PCs and 3-10 CC's. Zero issues ever! (aside from these SA issues of course)
 
wisconimike said:
I fully agree. Honestly, the PBC/6X just might be my favorite piece of gear. It's so rock solid. There was no point in any of this that I thought, "Maybe it's my PBC" :) Never once.
But for sake of thoroughness, I thought I should ask.
Is there anything in the MultiBox that could be causing issues? That one was a bit trickier to set up, but I'm pretty sure it's set up right.
It's worth noting again that I have 9 MIDI devices and aside from these SA issues noted above, they all work perfectly. I have programmed about 250 presets, with the average one sending 3-5 PCs and 3-10 CC's. Zero issues ever! (aside from these SA issues of course)
Click to expand...
The Multibox is a really simple device, it's just a MIDI thru box, no CPU or anything like that that could have a firmware bug. If the other pedals connected to the same Multibox output are working fine, then the Multibox has to be working correctly. It couldn't work for two pedals in the chain and fail to work for the middle one of the three.
 
Perfect, that's what I assumed. So it just seems like an SA problem and who knows what it is. I was really hoping it was a power issue, but this morning's episode (using external power--not the power on my board) was quite discouraging. Perhaps time to start shopping for other units.
Thanks for your help!
 
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